So, I'm watching a YouTube video by a group named "Retsupurae", who make videos in which they screen capture others' video works and put a riff track on it. I usually enjoy their videos, as they usually point out fundamental flaws and stupidities contained within the original video works.
However, at one point in the video, one of them let slip a completely serious comment of "all atheists are obnoxious". Now, seeing as that is a statement that demeans an entire group of people (including myself) based on their religious choice, that's the very definition of hate speech.
Of course, at this point, I tried to speak up about it, trying to remain as calm as respectful as I could about it, letting them know that it not only wasn't cool, but violates YouTube's terms of service as well. I wanted to warn them that if they don't watch things like that, that they could get suspended from YouTube again.
Needless to say, I got fanboys out the ass attacking me over the issue, treating it not as a friendly warning, but an all-out assault on the lords and masters that are Retsupurae. Not only that, but they completely condone any and all of their violations of the terms of service, or any other rules for that matter (such as US law). Now, I enjoy what Retsupurae does, as long as it doesn't cross the line, but I'm sorry. Hate speech is easily a really bad line-crosser, and I wanted to help them be aware of that so they could be more careful in the future. As much as I am on their side, the fanboys want to demonize me and make me into an enemy.
Welcome to the future, where patience and tolerance are only heard of in history books, if they aren't all burned by then.
Comments:
2.) Wow, a serious issue. What is this, internet sweeps week?
Anyway, I feel everyone is entitled to their opinion. I may not agree with their
opinions, but respect their right to say it. From what I gather, it seems like
these YouTubers were trying to enrage people purely to try to create a buzz and
gain views. Thats why most people say stupid shit, to make themselves more
popular. I've found if you just ignore it, then eventually they'll fizzle out
and go away. Posted by Minivan at 9:37am on Nov/20/2009
Anyway, I feel everyone is entitled to their opinion. I may not agree with their
opinions, but respect their right to say it. From what I gather, it seems like
these YouTubers were trying to enrage people purely to try to create a buzz and
gain views. Thats why most people say stupid shit, to make themselves more
popular. I've found if you just ignore it, then eventually they'll fizzle out
and go away. Posted by Minivan at 9:37am on Nov/20/2009
3.) J, for going against me, you are now a douchebag with the IQ of a toddler. You
deserve it, after all, just for speaking out. See what I did there? I got
attacked the exact same way, just because I tried to point out a problem.
I never said that the hate speech issue was covered under US law. Try reading my
statements more carefully. I was saying that them breaking OTHER rules, such as
US law, would be condoned as well.
"All atheists are smart" wouldn't be a problem because it doesn't
DEMEAN the group. "Demean" is the key word I used that you missed.
Indeed, patience and tolerance go both ways, that's why when one side shows
intolerance (which started with "all atheists are obnoxious"), it all
falls apart.
So, I basically only agreed with the middle paragraph you wrote, since it
doesn't actually demean a particular group within human society. Everyone is
treated equally when you use "all people".
Just so you have a better idea of the situation, let me copy/paste YouTube's
hate speech definition.
"Speech which attacks or demeans a group based on race or ethnic origin,
religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, and sexual orientation/gender
identity" Posted by Xelger at 1:27pm on Nov/20/2009
deserve it, after all, just for speaking out. See what I did there? I got
attacked the exact same way, just because I tried to point out a problem.
I never said that the hate speech issue was covered under US law. Try reading my
statements more carefully. I was saying that them breaking OTHER rules, such as
US law, would be condoned as well.
"All atheists are smart" wouldn't be a problem because it doesn't
DEMEAN the group. "Demean" is the key word I used that you missed.
Indeed, patience and tolerance go both ways, that's why when one side shows
intolerance (which started with "all atheists are obnoxious"), it all
falls apart.
So, I basically only agreed with the middle paragraph you wrote, since it
doesn't actually demean a particular group within human society. Everyone is
treated equally when you use "all people".
Just so you have a better idea of the situation, let me copy/paste YouTube's
hate speech definition.
"Speech which attacks or demeans a group based on race or ethnic origin,
religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, and sexual orientation/gender
identity" Posted by Xelger at 1:27pm on Nov/20/2009
4.) Oh, and Minivan, yeah, everyone is entitled to their opinion, however, there are
limits to that. In this case, how can you have an opinion on someone you never
met or heard about in any way? When someone says "all atheists are
obnoxious", that means that they have to have knowledge about every single
atheist on the planet, or they cannot HAVE an opinion on ALL atheists. A small
portion does not represent the whole. That's why we don't go around, for
example, saying all black people are gang members or thieves, even if the only
one's we've seen are. Posted by Xelger at 1:33pm on Nov/20/2009
limits to that. In this case, how can you have an opinion on someone you never
met or heard about in any way? When someone says "all atheists are
obnoxious", that means that they have to have knowledge about every single
atheist on the planet, or they cannot HAVE an opinion on ALL atheists. A small
portion does not represent the whole. That's why we don't go around, for
example, saying all black people are gang members or thieves, even if the only
one's we've seen are. Posted by Xelger at 1:33pm on Nov/20/2009
5.) Who's to say what's demeaning and what isn't? Seems kindof subjective just like
what is considered "obscene".
If "obnoxious" meets your criteria of demeaning hate speech then I
think your level of tolerance must be pretty low.
Sure youtube does say that in their TOS, but they also say that they are
generally willing to protect people's opinions and free speech, and acknowledge
that there is sometimes a fine line, however, I doubt most reasonable people
would consider that statement to be equated with hate speech.
Back to the real point i'm trying to get at is, did you really not expect to get
the reaction you did? There are two possibilities here. Either they truly
believe that all atheists are obnoxious, or they said it to get a reaction good
or bad.
If it's option one, do you think complaining about it to them will change their
opinion? If I go tell a KKK member that I know a black dude that's pretty cool,
will he change his beliefs? If anything, you've enforced the belief by being
obnoxious in the process of complaining.
If it's option two, then it certainly accomplished their objective did it not?
As for opinions, I don't think there are limits. If you want to think that all
chinese food is disgusting, who's to stop you from making that statement? I
think anyone to look at that statement objectively would see it either as a
stupid generalization, or at the very least, a lie. Posted by j-man at 3:39pm on Nov/20/2009
what is considered "obscene".
If "obnoxious" meets your criteria of demeaning hate speech then I
think your level of tolerance must be pretty low.
Sure youtube does say that in their TOS, but they also say that they are
generally willing to protect people's opinions and free speech, and acknowledge
that there is sometimes a fine line, however, I doubt most reasonable people
would consider that statement to be equated with hate speech.
Back to the real point i'm trying to get at is, did you really not expect to get
the reaction you did? There are two possibilities here. Either they truly
believe that all atheists are obnoxious, or they said it to get a reaction good
or bad.
If it's option one, do you think complaining about it to them will change their
opinion? If I go tell a KKK member that I know a black dude that's pretty cool,
will he change his beliefs? If anything, you've enforced the belief by being
obnoxious in the process of complaining.
If it's option two, then it certainly accomplished their objective did it not?
As for opinions, I don't think there are limits. If you want to think that all
chinese food is disgusting, who's to stop you from making that statement? I
think anyone to look at that statement objectively would see it either as a
stupid generalization, or at the very least, a lie. Posted by j-man at 3:39pm on Nov/20/2009
6.) I see what you're saying. It pretty much all comes down to the personal opinions
of YouTube staff in the end, as to where the line is drawn when it comes to
"hate speech". However, I'll tell you, retsupurae had been suspended
for less in the past. YouTube isn't very lenient on anything that is potentially
offensive, and that's what I was trying to warn them about. In the end, I got
attacked, and no, I didn't expect to be attacked. I thought I was helping.
Well, anyway, thanks for the input. It was enlightening in some ways. Posted by Xelger at 3:52pm on Nov/20/2009
of YouTube staff in the end, as to where the line is drawn when it comes to
"hate speech". However, I'll tell you, retsupurae had been suspended
for less in the past. YouTube isn't very lenient on anything that is potentially
offensive, and that's what I was trying to warn them about. In the end, I got
attacked, and no, I didn't expect to be attacked. I thought I was helping.
Well, anyway, thanks for the input. It was enlightening in some ways. Posted by Xelger at 3:52pm on Nov/20/2009
7.) One of the costs of freedom is having to put up with opinions of others that you
don't agree with. Just like the age old adage "Opinions are a lot like
assholes. Everyone one has one." Posted by Minivan at 11:23am on Nov/23/2009
don't agree with. Just like the age old adage "Opinions are a lot like
assholes. Everyone one has one." Posted by Minivan at 11:23am on Nov/23/2009
8.) Trolls are bothersome. I find listening to someone saying "I'm better than
you" for ten minutes straight to be boring and unpleasing to the ears. I
tend to avoid such content until the fanbase actually starts to adopt their
beliefs to be in accordance with the trolls, or even the personas they adopt. Posted by Kyazu at 6:53am on Feb/18/2010
you" for ten minutes straight to be boring and unpleasing to the ears. I
tend to avoid such content until the fanbase actually starts to adopt their
beliefs to be in accordance with the trolls, or even the personas they adopt. Posted by Kyazu at 6:53am on Feb/18/2010
realized the ramifications of speaking out.
Also, please check your knowledge of U.S. Law. There's this thing called the
first amendment of the constitution which protects free speech. e.g. the
opinions of both you and myself. Only in extreme cases (inciting riots for
example) would it be remotely considered illegal.
You could make the same argument that the statement is "All people are
stupid" and that would amount to the same thing. I doubt there is anyone
having their videos pulled from youtube for that.
Also, why is it only not ok when you don't like the message that is said? They
could have said "all atheists are smart". They're still singling out a
group of people. Why is that not bad as well?
I think the biggest misconception here is that people think they have the right
not to be offended. Patience and tolerance goes both ways. Posted by j-man at 11:03pm on Nov/19/2009